Having not seen the scene she's discussing, I can't say for sure, but in general, yes: she has a very good point.

She does. No doubt. But I still can't figure how a public exhibition, a la Britney-and-Madonna can be simplified to the satisfaction of a manipulative male audience. I think that underestimates the power of feminine.

Of course our popular culture is debased and degraded. It is done that way by design. The idea is keep the most people as unsatisfied and insecure as possible in the most personal way (i.e., sexually) so they buy more Piles o Crap (i.e., so they can be sexier).

How do you link this statement with girl on girl action on bourbon street? I'm sure some smart people can use their brain to do that.

But the Ellen kiss doesn't bother me quite so much, though. I'm sure if I saw it I'd think it was all very goofy. Yawn.

Being bisexual, I have always been annoyed at the girls who want to make out with me just to turn their boyfriend on. If you want to make out with me because I'm attractive and you like me, awesome, but don't do something you will regret later just so your boy gets hard. That's not fair to me.

As for the show - seems to me the scene was supposed to depict two lesbians in a passionate kiss. On one hand, I can see how that might indirectly reinforce the idea that girls should make out to turn guys on. On the other hand, unless the kiss had that affect in the show (two girls kissing = attention and affection from boys), the connection is weak.

However, I think she's assuming the motive, here. Of course it seems like the writers/directors/producers were going for the sexy wow-factor (I've not seen the show, either, so I'm guessing), but how many times do heterosexual couples kiss passionately during primetime? Is that meant to just turn the male audience on?

If passionate lesbian kisses are more common than passionate heterosexual kisses, I might buy the theory. I do wish that lesbian couples were portrayed by more average-looking women instead of the extremes (very butch or very hot), though. It kind of reinforces her point.

2: Blah blah male gaze. The real explanation is that "the male audience" = "the audience," inasmuch as we've all been conditioned that "hot chick"="sexy" (whereas, e.g., "hot dude"="douchebag," as often as not).

The flaw in the article is that it singles out one particular type of sexual behavior as degrading, when in reality, TV provides young women all sorts of ideas on the subject.

Excuse me. How is kissing another girl to attract men any worse than other things women do? They paint their faces, dye their hair, inflate their boobs, shave their privates, walk on high heels, play dumb, and dress provocatively. And of course they do it because it works. There's nothing intrinsically sexy about these things. They are just a cue that the woman may be interested/available. And guys are so dense, that the cues have to be pretty blatant.

Notice that there is no equivalent behavior among men. Guys kissing does not seem to excite women. The best we can do is to beat each other up.

7: the answer to your question is likely to be more biological than behavioral at its root. Certain aspects of human mating and courtship appear to be hard wired to some extent.

They paint their faces, dye their hair, inflate their boobs, shave their privates, walk on high heels, play dumb, and dress provocatively. And of course they do it because it works.

I've never found stupidity or ignorance to be attractive in a woman. Intelligence is sexy.

as we've all been conditioned that "hot chick"="sexy"

I'm not sure that took all that much conditioning.

Another one of those Scylla and Charybdis-type situations. Do you avoid portraying lesbian affection -- even the torrid kind -- because some dude somewhere may get off on it, or because straight chicks in a bar somewhere are kissing as exhibitionism? If the answer is yes, then lesbians must be rendered largely sexless beings in teeveeland... which satisfies the desires of some anti-gay dude somewhere, and teaches young lesbians that there's something shameful about displays of affection.

The only right answer is "what makes sense in the context of the story." If you don't need the torrid kiss but throw it in anyway, that's cheap; if you need to convey that a torrid affair is going on but steer clear of the kiss out of fear, that's cowardice.

(I mean, just generally speaking. I don't watch Shark and have no idea if her criticism works in context or not.)

I suspect, Slack, that the answer is that you portray lesbian affection as being actually, you know, *lesbian* affection.

you portray lesbian affection as being actually, you know, *lesbian* affection.

Meaning... you don't show them kissing? (Also, bisexuals don't count?) Is The L Word all about the male gaze?

Of course, another interesting and valid question would be "why no torrid male bisexual or homosexual romances"?

question would be "why no torrid male bisexual or homosexual romances"?

'Cause nobody would air it on primetime.

letter to all men.......don't be turned on when you see woman kiss,because once two women kiss eachother-it's you they don't miss. Once a woman is with another woman.....a man seems boring. This is because women are more emotional and respond with greater affection with someone their comfortable with. Affection and desire is much greater with emotion, and men.............they avoid all emotions.

letter to all men.......don't be turned on when you see woman kiss,because once two women kiss eachother-it's you they don't miss. Once a woman is with another woman.....a man seems boring. This is because women are more emotional and respond with greater affection with someone their comfortable with. Affection and desire is much greater with emotion, and men.............they avoid all emotions.

Sorry.......I hit it twice. Double the pleasure

16: I wonder if you can oversimplify this interesting discussion anymore than that.

People are individuals and to each fetish their own. However there are certain innate aspects of sexuality and sexual attraction that are closely tied to the procreation of the species.

For men looking at women it seems to be the slight of a healthy-looking, curvy, hourglass figure in a lady, being between the ages of late teens to late 20s, and smooth unblemished skin. That and the fashions which accentuate these characteristics.

For women looking at men it seems to be tallness, wits, reasonable but not roided-looking musculature, broad shoulders, and the projection of carefree invulnerability. That and the fashions which accentuate these traits.

Of course we are talking about groups of individual humans whose traits and desires for these fall along statistical bell curves. The tails of these curves--your non-vanilla-sexuals--are your free spirt types who continue to populate society because they are required for a thousand generations of history too. They are the kinds of people who invent agriculture and plot the motions of the stars, and embark on long journeys to lead the way untrammeled lands of milk and honey.

What is odd is I don't see any evidence that girl-on-girl kissing is anything more than Howard Stern's juvenile antics permeating the Zeitgeist, and people taking to this like chimps to a new method of social grooming.

'Cause nobody would air it on primetime.

I watched Queer as Folk on DVD.

Queer as Folk was a good show.

We live in a Man's world. Woman will do what it takes to satisfy men. This is sad because women will change their true self in order to receive acceptance from men. Plastic surgeons are everywhere with new procedures and payment plans. A women can have breast implants, and pay for them over a 2 year period. This information I learned from my daughter. She's doing research because she feels she needs to make changes in order to please the opposite sex. This is a concern. Many young women are feeling compelled to have surgery, dress sexy, or participate in unnatural sexual desires. They feel they must indulge in men's fantasies by being that perfect girl.
This is frustrating for me because we (women) don't expect men to change their image. We love them for who they are. When a women meets a man, she doesn't stare at his -----; however, when a man meets a woman, he stares at her breasts. Another thing...Why do men fantasize about girl on girl? Once again...Men put pressure on women, so that we change despite what's right.
I am not bashing all men. Just the one's that I described. If you don't fit the description, then I apologize

we (women) don't expect men to change their image

Which is why no man ever goes to the gym or shaves.

The evidently large market for breast augmentation is really weird; it doesn't seem to me to be that common to meet men who think breast size is a dealbreaker, but it's plenty common to meet women who think most men think that it is. (Or maybe they're just hoping for comparative competitive advantage, on the theory that it's just more eye-catching to have large breasts than not.) It's the closest feminine equivalent I can think of to the, ummm, outsized male obsession with penis size.

Obsessions with weight I can understand, because it's not hard to find people of both sexes who will bash a woman for being "fat" when she happens to be a healthy weight, and the prevalent supermodel beauty standard does a lot to drive that. And it's quite true, I think, to say that an overweight man who has a sufficiency of charm, or money, or confidence, or social clout (or all four) has a better chance of successfully playing "outside his league" in the dating market than a similarly overweight woman.

About girls feeling "pressured to engage in unnatural sexual desires," ugh. I don't think it's necessarily that hard to differentiate who is genuinely gay or bi- or just experimenting from who is just putting on a show. But I think it's extremely easy to accuse portrayals of the former of promoting in the latter, and that's a slippery slope. In general, I think it sucks that gay and bi-sexuality are things that can only be directly acknowledged when one is specifically making a show or film about Teh Gay.

Which is why no man ever goes to the gym or shaves.

Okay, okay, I can take a hint...

#22: When a women meets a man, she doesn't stare at his -----

Wallet?
Height?
Abs?
Face?

Come on, what was the hidden word, already?

22: A lotta women I talk with get indignant when it is mentioned that they do these crazy routines for some silly man (heels, makeup, push up bra, working out at the gym obsessively).

No no no they say--they do it for themselves so THEY feel sexy and confident.

Having studied human social behavior in large cites and on numerous subway and train rides, I can tell you from experience that women check each other out much more than men check out women. It's perhaps counterintuitive but it's true.

Has anyone watched The L Word? I love that show. Message to the Doctor...you are correct. Women probably obsess over breast size more than men. Women assume large breasts are what men want. Then again, women always claim to know what a man wants even if he doesn't. We have the ability to read your minds. Actually we create drama by claiming to read your minds, and putting words in your mouth. Anyways, back to the topic. I have met men that favor intellect and witt over large breasts; however, they add that little pun, "Large breasts are just an extra benefit lol." You have to admit, Men do have high standards, and women have the ability to accept imperfections in men. For example...Gray haired men are sexy; however, gray haired women are old. Men with facial lines are dignified. Women with lines are antiques. Men can even go bald, and be labeled Vin Diesel, but women bald..........we won't even go there. It just isn't fair. Men can be sexy until there wearing Depends; however, women's sex appeal withers in her 20's. Oops, I did it again. I got off the topic. Hey Doctor......Do men really worry about their size? I never thought of men vulnerable.

Hey Jon! You just figured out our secret. I must admit...I do check out other women all the time, because of curiousity. By the way thread 28 is mine also. I forgot to name it. Biker..........fill in the blank.

Men can be sexy until there wearing Depends

There's somebody for everybody.

Perhaps part of the appeal of two women kissing is that you get the voyeuristic pleasure of watching the display of affection without having it spoiled by the presence on another (rival) male.

Personally, I can get turned on by a picture of a sexy woman, but not so much when she's riding someone's dick. Not only do I not much like looking at dicks, but I particularly don't like to see someone else having all the fun while I've just got this lousy picture.

referring to caradoc...ponder upon your last comment. This is the reason why women prefer women. Women are passionate, emotional and love to show affection without the presence of another male. Excuse me. I just had to say that. Just kidding...........or am I?....The world may never know.

7: Are you familiar at all with the concept of slash? Broadly speaking, it's a genre of fanfic where FEMALE writers contruct worlds where their favorite attractive MALE characters from TV get it on in a jaw-dropping variety of ways.

If you actually think 'hot guys making out' is NOT a turn-on for women, read up on slash and prepare for a rude awakening.

Not only do I not much like looking at dicks

When caradoc watches porn, he's looking around them, see.

Women Want to Wrestle.