God I hope we don't go from civil war to ethnic cleansing. Jesus, the poor Iraqis.

That said, "sectarian text messages" is pretty funny.

As horrible as an escalation in Iraqi sectarian violence is, perhaps it will ultimately result in a state, or two states, that can enjoy a genuine peace, as opposed to one that must be artificially maintained by the vicious tactics of a Saddam Hussein.

will ultimately result

Fucked up, man.

I think what we (and the Iraqi people) are discovering is that there are worse things than Saddam Hussein. The viciousness of the current situation makes Saddam look downright restrained.

In Saddam Hussein's Iraq, you could buy a beer, put on makeup, own a gun, visit a hair salon, see a decent doctor, smile innocently and pleasantly at a person of the opposite sex, and turn on the lights.

Things were iffy if you managed to get entangled with the power structure, but if you stayed on the DL you could live okay.

No longer.

Now...try visiting a barber in southern Iraq where the Badr brigades run things. They'll farghin cut you to pieces with machetes for that.

The funny thing is, most Iraqis don't want this at all, and are being dragged in. All over the place there are mixed Shiite-Sunni neighborhoods. Once upon a time if you asked someone which religious sect they belonged to, they would look at you strangely and be vaguely offended.

The group that wants us to leave the LEAST are the Sunni minority, yet ironically they are the ones attacking our troops. No one benefits more from "staying the course" than the Sunnis who will lose biggest when Iraq fractures into three: Kurdistan, West Iran, and Greater Baghdad.

Cue Stan: "Dude this is ****ed up!"

Once upon a time if you asked someone which religious sect they belonged to, they would look at you strangely and be vaguely offended.

How do you know this? Firsthand observation? After all we've heard about how the Sunni-Shiite division is key to understanding Iraq, it seems odd to say it was never a big deal to anyone in the past.

(BTW, Jon, I wasn't being facetious; if you actually have lived in Iraq, then I bow to your superior knowledge of what things used to be like there.)

GB: Always looking at the bright side of of mayhem and violence, at the tail end of US policies that have been shockingly costly, naive and counterproductive.

Yes, there will always be a morning after, but it will be a blood-drenched dawn.

Apo: Don`t think you`re being a bit dramatic? The disintegration of Iraq doesn`t pose a mortal threat to the western world. Mere anarchy is being unloosed only in a place where it has been unloosed before. Quite sad of course, but hardly the end of the world.

the Sunnis who will lose biggest when Iraq fractures into three: Kurdistan, West Iran, and Greater Baghdad.

Isn't that a good thing? Iraq as it existed was a Frankenstein nation made up of disparate parts. A Sunni Baath minority held it together by force, and other groups, like the Kurds, were violently repressed.

The fracturing of Iraq is no more lamentable than the breakup of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union. That this fracturing must be preceded by a period of violent conflict is tragic, yet probably unavoidable.

Mere anarchy is being unloosed only in a place where it has been unloosed before.

Not true! Iraq before the US invasion was heaven on Earth. And before the first Gulf War, it was even better. Iran-Iraq war? Kurdish genocide? Never happened.

And boy, could you get your hair cut there! Verily, it was a golden age for the tonsorial arts.

This blog tends to indicate that the situation is now much worse than it has been before, at least for the middle class.

I don't know why I need to stand up and say that Saddam was a very bad man, but okay, sure I'll say it. And sure, it's absurd to say that Iraq was some kind of heaven on earth pre-invasion. Happy now?!

My source re: Iraqi unity was Scott Ritter's obsevations.

If Iraq needs to fracture, fine. But that is not what the war planners wanted--that outcome was far offsides of their ambitions.

Shorter GB: Hopefully at some point in the distant future, Iraq will be a peaceful, stable democracy. This hope demonstrates that the US invasion of Iraq was a good thing.

A government is a turbulent reflection of the society that begets it.

The converse of this is far less true, IMO.

So my hopes for Iraq being a "stable democracy" do not exist. I only hope the violence will end in a generation or two. That is not too unreasonable to ask.

Some very reasonable thoughts on Iraq from Scott Adams, the Dilbert guy. Seriously.

GB: Isn't that a good thing? Iraq as it existed was a Frankenstein nation made up of disparate parts. A Sunni Baath minority held it together by force, and other groups, like the Kurds, were violently repressed.

The fracturing of Iraq is no more lamentable than the breakup of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union. That this fracturing must be preceded by a period of violent conflict is tragic, yet probably unavoidable.

Shorter GB: Humpty Dumpty is no longer on the wall. Some might mourn, but sometimes it is necessary to break eggs, especially if they are Frankenstein. It's not our fault, but rather the inevitable and hopefully ultimately happy result of our good intentions.

GB, does your link to Scott Adams mean you think that our continued occupation of Iraq is counterproductive?

GB, does your link to Scott Adams mean you think that our continued occupation of Iraq is counterproductive?

You appear to have missed the point of the Adams post. Read it again.

"As horrible as an escalation in Iraqi sectarian violence is, perhaps it will ultimately result in a state, or two states, that can enjoy a genuine peace, as opposed to one that must be artificially maintained by the vicious tactics of a Saddam Hussein."
What shit. What unadulterated garbage. You never stop kissing Bush ass, Gaijin, you fucking cretin. Of all the shit- eating equivocation I've seen shit out of all of the asses of every right wing apologist that's spewed shit about this insanity, yours is the most stupid.

This war never needed to happen. Saddam wouldn't have fucking existed without America's CIA. The Iran-Iraq war would never have happened without America connivance. All of this bloody slaughter, the maniacal torture and murder and goddam American military gun-mad stupidity that proceeded it and facilitated it could and should have been avoided. 1/2 a million dead so far this time,millions dead before, maybe millions more but "perhaps it will ultimately result in a state, or two states, that can enjoy a genuine peace".
You worm-spewing dogs arse, Gaijin. You stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid piece of dog spew. You fucking neo-con shit-sucking dork. Curse you and the arrogant, moronic America you represent.
If there was a goddam God, She'd curse you too. Goddam you.

Well, that's a pretty rock-solid argument right there, Mr. or Ms. no-name. You win.

Gaijin

Wrong again you supercilious turd. I'm not arguing with you, I'm cursing you, you big-headed fuck-witted egotistical clown, for your goddam condescension, your intransigent "oh its all good" attitude about episode number two of the holocaust, first perpetrated by America in Vietnam Laos and Cambodia and now running in Iraq.
"Perhaps they'll find peace". You unutterable poltroon. The torture of Iraq was designed manufactured and maintained in America by whores just like you who don't give a fuck about anything on earth except the "honour and greatness" of 'your' America and if that means torturing, raping and butchering millions of innocent men women and children, you and your ilk don't deign to care.

You pulsinaminous immoral deviant.

Immediately I'd written it the first post, I went straight to your site and what do I see? "An armed society is a polite society".

You disengenuous goddammed fucking moron.

Spewing factless shit that flies directly in the face of every statistic ever taken on a peaceful society isn't a fucking argument, it's just lying for an ideology; 'catapulting the propaganda' as your hero, the arsehole on legs puts it. And that's exactly what you're doing in your comments about the bestial situation created by your neo-con heroes in Iraq.

You don't want rationality, reasonableness or intectual exchange. You want to promote a failed gun ideology that was ludicrous when mediocre writer Heinlein suggested it, and that is perpetrated by moral-less, soulless, conscience-less, hate-mongering sadists who make a fat fucking profit out it.

As for the no-name shit, my previous post was on another computer than mine, and I threw it at the page so quick I didn't notice there was no signature. So eat this war boy.

Curse you for your blind, egotistical, mindless support of this bestial war. Curse you for your continued propaganda in support of this perverted monstrosity wreaked by the war mongers of America. And goddam you for your frivolous justification of this corrupt, depraved and revolting slaughter.

Iraq must be one of the most polite societies in history. Blood-curdlingly polite.

Funny how neil and waldo both criticize my Heinlein post by pointing out that Iraq isn't a polite society, when that ridiculous criticism is specifically addressed in — nay, is the central point of — my post:

Liberals like to make fun of the Robert Heinlein saying that "An armed society is a polite society." There are plenty of arms in Iraq, they'll say, and things don't seem too polite over there.

Yeah, well Iraq is in a state of war. London isn't.

It's also funny how Waldo throws a little temper tantrum calling me every name in the book, then says, "You don't want rationality, reasonableness or intectual [sic] exchange."

Not with someone who's incapable of providing it, to be sure.

props to you waldo, the time for intellectual restraint passed long ago with respect to this ridiculous "war." When Afghanistan started I was in disbelief...then Iraq, I was vigilant...now, years later, I'm just plain fucking pissed off. Gaijin is wrong if he thinks that the house of cards will never come tumbling down just because he holds his "patriotic" views with complete disregard for reality. He'll always retreat to the next official storyline. Iraq is quickly becoming another notch in the timeline of imperialist attrocities. I am an American, an I certainly hope that one day I'll be able to walk around in the world with my head up, unashamed of what is done with my tax money. but that day is not now...

As for you Gaijin, the best thing I could think to do with you is hand you over to a group of mourning Iraqi mothers, so that they could pummel you with their righteous, shaking fists

may history be blunt when we one day acknowledge the blood on my country's hands, as far as i'm concerned there will be no forgiveness...

Lessee what I said that has matus and waldo so pissed off:

As horrible as an escalation in Iraqi sectarian violence is, perhaps it will ultimately result in a state, or two states, that can enjoy a genuine peace, as opposed to one that must be artificially maintained by the vicious tactics of a Saddam Hussein.

Note that this statement does not say anything in support of Bush; nor does it contain any gung-ho patriotic sentiment. It merely expresses a hope that there may be some sort of positive development in the wake of an admittedly "horrible" period of violence. I can see how that would really rile a guy up.

As for you Gaijin, the best thing I could think to do with you is hand you over to a group of mourning Iraqi mothers, so that they could pummel you with their righteous, shaking fists

If you're going to hand over anyone for pummelling, why not hand over Sadr and the guys who are drilling holes in people's heads and suicide-bombing crowds of civilians?

Oh, yeah, that's right, I forgot. Because nothing they do is their fault. It's all Bush's fault.

When Americans kill Iraqis, that's Bush's fault.

When Iraqis kill other Iraqis, that's also Bush's fault.

And when Saddam gassed the Kurds (whose mothers can shake their righteous fists with the best of them), and sent hundreds of thousands of his countrymen to their deaths in a pointless war with Iran, that's still Bush's fault, even though he wouldn't be president until a decade or two after those things happened.

I'll give you guys this: You're consistent. Not logical, but consistent.

When Afghanistan started I was in disbelief

And that tells me pretty much all I need to know about you, matus. Do you really find it impossible to believe that America would go after the regime that gave Osama a base to plan the 9-11 attacks? Or do you blame those on Bush, too?

When 9-11 happened, all the world reeled in sympathy for America. In Iran for Pete's sake there were candlelit vigils for the New York victims.

The US could have taken the high ground: this was a crime and the criminals needed justice--because this was a highly unusual circumstance, a trial for the accused was not possible unless they turned themselves in. At that time, all of Al Queda could have fit in a high school gymnasium. A few hundred were in Afghanistan. These guys could have been carpet bombed near Kandahar via Diego Garcia based B52s. Air dropped special forces and seals could have closed the escape routes. This could have been done decisively and swiftly. The ex-communist (i.e., northern alliance) takeover of Graeter Kabul would have been a nice stunt of symbolic value, and could have given the US a base of operations for mop-up. The President could have placed bounties on the heads of Osama bin Laden, Khalid Sheik Mohammad, and Al Zawirihi if they survived--only to be paid out in full if innocent civilians were spared the violence.

Then, after killing the terrorists and arm-twisting the Saudi-Wahaabist sympathizers who financed them, the operation could have been over in less than a year.

None of this had to be a very big deal. Iraq was completely unnecessary i.e., it posed no threat to the US only paranoid and perhaps semi-maniacal pro-Likkudniks.

I thought Afghanistan did not go very swimmingly when I began to hear that the "war" was being expanded to include taliban and whoever else the Northern Alliance sold to us as prisoners. I began to sigh in despair when I began to hear of torture and atrocities.

The high ground was being lost.

That is all that matters in fourth generation war. Not numbers not armaments not economics.

GB, you're a great one to talk about responsibility - for you, everyone has responsibility except for Bush and his supporters. You dodge your own responsibility and that of this Administration issue by pointing to the bad behavior of others. Very juvenile, and the Administration and its supporters were rightly spanked by voters last month.

You're consistent. Not logical, but consistent.

Perhaps it's the bigot in me, but I'm sympathetic. We are all very resistant to admitting when we're wrong, yet quick to point out the fault of others. Human nature and all that.

In the case of Iraq, you and the Bush Administration have been wrong - big time, and it matters. Yes, you're edging away from this big pile of shit and evil. But you should understand how others, whose patriotism, sanity and good intentions have been continually called into question over the past five years by Bush supporters, might take umbrage at your efforts to put gallons of white paint all over it and to pat yourself on the back for pushing history in the right direction.

Just so everyone is clear, I never ascribed blame to anyone in my comment, nor did I even mention Bush. The "blame" that Gaijin is quick to assign to the country we've turned into a nightmare falls on all of us, but that was only part of the point I wanted to make.

My family too was liberated and saved after WWII, at least that's what the Soviets called it then. I know I said I was an American, that's because I've lived in the states 15 years now. Despite my saddness over the situation, I will not shirk my responsibilities and will keep my eyes open and call for America to rise from its own pile of ashes. Please tell me Gaijin, that you don't fall for the crap about altruistic America and its will to spread democracy and peace. That is what we'd all like to believe, but history paints us a different picture. The "pummeling by mothers" comment was a bit in haste, I would hope you would only need to speak with a few of them in order come down off your pedestal...

good riddens