I'm pretty sure there are no gay Iranians. There couldn't be.

Oh, there are gay Iranians.

Was Freddy Persian? I always thought he was Indian. Anyway, I wonder if they'll release "Mustafa" on the Jazz album, which actually has some mideastern rhythms and name-checks Allah.

I know he was born on the island of Zanzibar...

..."name-checks"...(?) - c'mon, the whole song is sung in Arabic.

I know plenty of gay persians!

Freddie Mercury was not Iranian. He was a Parsi Indian who grew up in both India and Zanzibar before migrating to England. His ancestors migrated from Persia 1,400 years ago. Calling him Persian is the same as calling Art Garfunkel(he's Jewish) Israeli even though his remote ancestors came from Israel 2,000 years ago. The Parsis of India have imbibed Indian culture to the point where they are ethnically more an Indian people than an Iranian people. They speak Indian languages as their mother tongue. They're only Iranian connection is their racial bodytype, due to their not intermarrying with other Indians. Other than that, they are an Indian people. How do I know this? Because I am a Parsi. And anyway, Freddie Mercury made no claim to having pride in Iranian ancestry. He was proud of being British. He abandoned his Indo-Zanzibari past in the wake of his new found popularity as a rock singer. He often went to great lengths to cover it up. He probably made some small claim as to being proud of Iran to cover up this fact, not out of any sincere pride.

Huh. Well, there you have it. Thanks for the info.

Freddy Mercury is a Parsee, but like many other Parsees he was a proud Persian.I am a Parsee brought up in india now living in Australia but i can tell you that we are more Persian than most people.In an interview one of Freddys friends asked him what nationality are you? and he replied "Im Persian".

Sure we have intermixed with the Indian culture, but we have preserved our Persian roots.
I see myself more Persian, so did Freddy Mercury.
Koroush

ok my parsee friends wat up! i am not parsee but am very interested with it. i have questions about it-are parsis mixed with iranian and indian or are they strictly persian? what was freddy mercury's native language besides english?
i am not being offensive but to me parsees did preserve their roots but you can't call them just persian because there is much more history behind it all

I'm the Parsi who said Mercury is not Persian. Parsis have been in India for 1200 years. They speak Indian languages. Freddie's mother tongue is Gujarati. And my argument about his hiding an Indian past is not answered, so that should carry some weight. And as for Kouroush, I have strong doubts as to you're being a Parsi. Kouroush does not sound like a Parsi name but like a modern Iranian Persian name. I could be wrong though but give your last name please.

Cyrus again,
Once more, as for Parsis identifying with Persians, we do have pride in our ancient Persian roots, but that does not mean we are Persians. Parsis have a history and identity separate from the Persians. Calling them simply Persians rather than "of Persian origins" undermines this Indian history and development. Nationally, Parsis still identify with India.

First off, Kouroush = Cyrus. I'm not saying the two people on this board are the same people, but that the name Cyrus, as in "King Cyrus" is pronounced "Kouroush" in Parsi (Or "Farsi" actually either is used for the lanuage but the former is more proper as the "P" and "F" characters are similar in written Parsi.) Kouroush refers to the Sun like "Koursheed". Cyrus is the Greek version of the same name. Anyway. Where Indian Parsi and Iranian Parsi meet is Zoroastrianism. I don't give a flying fuck about ethnicity. Being Iranian/Aryan never had anything to do with that racist shit. In fact, Aryan is a concept that is from Zoroastrianism as "Aryan" is a Zoroastrian spiritual term. Has nothing to do with race; unless you're an art school drop out who did not pay attention in history class and believe otherwise, which is what Hitler was. Oh BTW, Both Iranian and Indian mean Aryan. Which is itself rather silly... I could see being proud of Culture (Farhang) but why the fuck would you be proud of being any race. Being born is no achievement. Indian, Iranian, ... yo whatever. What have *you* done in *your* life. Stop trying to feel good by associating yourself with another persons achievements.

apostropher, you simply have The. Best. old comment threads. I love this stuff. If you ever take that whole "who commented last" thing off the front page I am going to be so ridiculously sad... I can't express it.

F*** Racist Pride,
I wasnt trying to bring out racist pride or anything. I was trying to correct a misconception about my ethnic community. Parsis and Iranians are not the same (though the terms Parsi and Persian are the same more or less). Parsi signifies an Indian Zoroastrian people whereas Iranian Persian signifies modern Iranian Persians. Parsis have mixed as well with Indians, due to recent genetic tests, so we are as much Indian as of Persian origin. I'm not pushing a racial agenda or associating myself with someone's achievements. I'm correcting misconceptions about a vague person.

Some things said on here are correct. The Parsis in India have mixed over the years.

However, Indians are not Aryan. Yes, Persian Aryans invaded India, and sanskrit came from the Persians. But Those Indians that are lighter are still mixed with Dravidians.

The word Aryan was first recorded by Dariush the Great over 2500 years ago. It got incorporated into Indian culture. Regardless of what hindu fundamentalists have said.

Oh, and Hindu is a Persian word that described the inhabitants of India as "dark". Just FYI on the origin of the word. Persians still call India "Hend".

Most people on this planet are a little mixed (anywhere between 3-20%), but there are some unmixed peoples I'm sure. African Americans are mostly African (Over 80%, with some Caucasian blood, and some with native blood). Obviously Africans with light eyes and white features have European blood, as do African Americans.

Now, I don't think all Parsis are mixed, but over 36% have intermarried. And whomever made the comment about the genetic tests was correct. Tests show that many Parsis have South Asian blood.

Iranian of Zoroastrian descent.

Whoever posted the comment above just showed an utter ignorance of history and is a stupid racist bastard. Persian and Aryan are not the same. Persians are descended from Aryans, as are Pashtuns and Indians. All have mixed with other groups at one time or another, so the mixed pedigree is not to disqualify anyone from calling themselves Aryan. The first recorded use of "Aryan" was not in Darius' inscription but in the Rig Veda, one of the oldest Indo-European documents in the world, and THE OLDEST Indo-Iranian document in the world. Historically, all Indo-European scholars have accepted and continue to accept this as fact. Hindu fundamentalists dont. Sounds like a fucked up Persian fundamentalist, if you ask me (and I dont mean racism to Persian Iranians in general, I have many friends among them). Sanskrit is an Indo-Iranian language related to Persian, but not derived from it. Also, the entire Parsi community in general has been proven to be mixed. The original Persian immigrants were mostly males and whatever purebloods were there would have been mixed up anyway within 200 years of their stay in India. There's no way there can be any pure-blooded Persian descendants among the Parsis. Yet we still are of Persian lineage. we are proud Zoroastrians and proud of our ancient Persian heritage, yet we do not see ourselves as Iranians. We left Persia more than a millenia ago and have become Indians. We built modern India and are as much apart of it as any one else. We are the products of the Achaemenids, the Gujarati kings who sheltered us and the British Raj.

LOL why do Iranians always claim to be Aryan?
Racially speaking it has been shown that 'Persians/Iranians' are genetically similar to Semites( Arabs and Jews) moreso than to Indians. Arya is in its earliest use in Indian culture not Persian, Indian culture flowed West and East still evidenced today in ruins in East Asia, and West Asia however in Afghanistan they tried to and did destroy Indian Buddhist statues that were nearly 100 ft tall. Hmmmm ever think this occurred for many many years and nearly wiped out all Indian cultural influences in these Westerly Muslim nations? Not too obvious eh? LOL
The only legitimacy Iranians/Persians have on the term "Aryan" is from a scripture by Darius-however it is much later than any Indian mention of the term. Also funny how the Zoroastrian religion had turned Vedic Indian Religious Gods etc into demons and the demons into Gods.
It is funny how the Zoroastrian God is Ahura Mazda which in Sanskrit implies the great evil Asura, Dasyus etc. Why would Indians call their demons these names yet Iranians call their Gods that? Little fight between brothers? Or a possible ofshoot of Indians trying to gain independence? Just look at the ancient ruins and realize where ancient civilization begamn. Old Indian ruins dating to 6000-3000 BCE show supporting population bases of 1 million, show me that in Iran???? What agricultural base does/did ancient Iran have to make people live there????? Cant think of anything?? What a surprise. It is hard to swallow that the ancient indian scriptures are a true history of humankind-being bouyed by genetic proof.
Peace.
A proud decendant of Arya-Varta-Home of the Aryans..........Arya-Varta--->Bharata (India)....hhhhhhmmmmm what a concept eh?

Oh come on! This post's about Freddie, not whose more or less Aryan! The point of the post was that Freddie's supposed to be persian but actually parsi indian. Dont go off topic! And, it doesnt matter what freddie was, he liked to think of himself as brit anyway. The "persian" business was there just to hide India. He's a great singer, thats what we should remember him for. That's what he would want.

Whoa,Indra ,you need to stop,right here right now,first of all this article is about freddie,ok a gay talented Iranian,I listen to his music.
second ,Since when did Aryans become Indian?
How sad for you.You like the Aryans because you liked the way we invaded you.Dreams of those days still makes racists like u c*m

Freddie’s served as an idol and an icon in many capacities. He was a profound and proud man, yet it was never his ethnicity for which he’d strut his stuff. One shouldn’t claim a dead man a part of their cause, especially without understanding what truly motivated that man. The innate charisma that propels one to inspirational greatness is an enigma to the vast majority that doesn’t have it, and is only a source of angst for most that do.

Whatever the reason you’re here reading this, my personal belief is that those fat-bottomed girls, you make the rockin world go round. Yeah!

Just a man. With a man's courage.

I love old comment threads.

Freddie was Indian! not Iranian. Parsis are Indians and see themselves as such. It looks like Tanya doesnt know anything about Parsis. Looks like Iranians have an irredentialist problem.

However, Indians are not Aryan. Yes, Persian Aryans invaded India, and sanskrit came from the Persians. But Those Indians that are lighter are still mixed with Dravidians.

Iranian of Zoroastrian descent.

Posted by: at May 13, 2006 06:44 AM

.......LOL, then, explain why India today is a far more modern, affluent and advanced ( not to mention powerful) as compared to Iran !

No offence Tanya, but Farrokh Bulsara was no Iranian. Even his death certificate showed his ethnicity to be Indian-Parsi. Parsis in India are Indian, not Iranian.

Farrok Bulsara made great music TOGETHER with his other band members. Though he was always full of ideas, and the leading singer, it wasn't a one man show. His solo stuff is not memorable to me. I grew up with his music in the UK, but didn't realise he had Indian/Pasee lineage. Due partly to colonialism, the incessant drive to Westernise, and demonise that which was native, many Indians as UK citizens were often ashamed of their Indian lineage, and I saw in various comical ways how many South Asians tried to hide their background to their school friends, right in front of me. The British who had a whole cabinet position devouted to India, and was the 'Jewel in the Crown' rarely acknowledged India---The same to this day; Every other Commonwealth nation has hosted the game, but not India----the 4th largest economy on earth by PPP, and the 4th most powerful nation on earth, and moving slowly quietly in the Indian manner up the table. Its more common to see black African faces on popular TV in the UK portrayed as fully functioning members of the country than the nearly twice as many South Asians even though they are far more successful in all areas, especially business--I am not going into psycho babble here, the reasons are complex and many. But it was a shame that such a talented singer never sang a song related to South Asia, and thus nod a little in the direction of his ancestary and his parents!

These guys are gonna catch up to the tribute bands thread yet.

He was what he was, that's what he believed. Now, what's the point of all this argument of what his nationality was?
his birth certificate shows his nationality as Indian. I have so many friends that their birth certificate shows their are "AMERICAN" :)), What a joke if they are really american. He spent his childhood in India. He felt lucky to be in UK and he raised the Britain flag so many times. But don't forget, when they asked about his nationality, he said "I am Persian". Now don't fight, he loved all of us, as we do love him

Parsis were persians as a nationality before 1400 years now they are just indian nationals for last 14 centuries.
And most of the north west iranians are afro asiatic genetically. Whereas the Aryans lineage if found at the rate of 40 percent in pakistan(population 160 million) and Northern India(population 600 million)

i have heard when britishers came down to India, they entered from gujrat where parsis enterained them and act like pimps to britishers for Indian kings, parsis had enough hand to make Indianslave of britishers, Even barsis were in to same business as British East India Company was Opium (Grass), Today Parsis again changed as poor people who were not into anything. so that they can save their heads in india, and still parsis works as intellignce for Britshers. Actually al;l i have to say is PARSIS ARE BASTARDS AND THEIR RELIGION CONSIST OF NOTHING BUT ALL LIES SUER FOR PEE AND PISS ON THEIR GOD AND RELIGION....

How dare you? talking about your master like that? Read my lips boy, it's called "T H E Persian Empire." You know the people who ruled the entire world and still do. If you ever get a couple of bucks together take a drive over to Beverly Hills, New York, Paris etc., and you will see that most of the multimillion $ homes and industries are owned by Iranians. You noticed no major power ever attacks Iran?

You can bullshit yourself all you want, but I won't bullshit you because you are my favorite turd. The fact is that Persians have always been the royalty and always will. The only reason they have to hide their race is because of all you sand niggers from India, Pakistan and the rest of the shit world who are ambarrasing and claim to be Persians or Aryans or whaterver. You are all niggers and always will be. That's why we hire you to clean our toilets.

I'm Persian, so Freddy Mercury is not the only Rocker, and I played with major acts by Epic and Motown throughout U.S., met many other major cats, I mean skilled musicians, not one of these panty hose mother fuckers you see on TV, banged every hot chick made tons of dough and haven't worked for over 12 years kicking it with the bitches at my water front mansion while you've been the towel boy for nigger pimps. Best advice I can give you is to shut your ass, try to get laid and go to work. Nigger please. Get your ugly ass up in the morning and go to work so you can pay your rent for your little apartment, driving your little shitty car, living in the little hell hole you grew up in. Nigger please.

Mehrdad, you are my new hero. Can I come over and be your towel boy?

NCP: Nigger please.

Well at least he said "please".

Mehrdad is ogged, isn't he?

"Sand niggers from India"? That's just... perplexing.

Ogged says no.

You know how Persians lie, apo.

Freddie was a Parasi and he went to a boarding school in Panchgani India - St. Peters School. This coincidentally is my boarding school too. He had a band while he was in school call the "Hectics". I've seen pictures of his while he was in school (and yes he does look like a "pakka bawa"). Those of you who know anything about Parasis will know what I mean by that. I know people that went to school with him - i think he graduated from there in 1968 (i'm not too sure). He went to England after that. Throughout his life as a rock start he concealed the fact that we was an Indian (a Parasi). I'm not sure if he was just a shy guy or just afraid that it'd hurt his fame. You decide...

Wow, no-name is pretty calm and coherent today (nobody mention Obama!).

Hee.

That's stupid, now why would a guy say he is Persian when he's not? Especially near dying! Are Persians poplular suddenly or something? I've seen a lot of Persian bands in L.A., but not a single Hindu yet. Plus all Hindus have that black puffy eye look that stands out like a sore thumb. Freddie didn't have that at all. He definitely looks Persian or middle eastern but not Hindu by any means.

Faredoon Bulsara became Freddie Bulsara in school and then, to hide his Indian/Parsi roots changed his name to Freddie Mercury. He was never proud of his Parsi/Indian roots like Conductor Zubin Mehta is. In fact, from his behavior during the last years of his life he cannot be termed to have even been following the Zoroastrian faith in to which he was ordained. That is why his after death prayers were stopped mid-way in Bombay after the priests were informed of the facts. I do not think Freddie Mercury is a good role model if someone were to refer to Parsis. At first I used to shun the Queen as a bunch of gay punks. But recently, as I grow older (61 now) I am taking a broader view and re-discovering Queen. My top favorites are "I want to be free", "Killer Queen" and "Bohemian Rhapsody". So there you have it.

Whoever posted the comment above just showed an utter ignorance of rock history and is a stupid tin-eared bastard. Punk and glam rock are not the same. Queen is descended from heavy metal and arena rock, as are Styx and Nazareth. All have mixed with other groups at one time or another, so the mixed pedigree is not to disqualify anyone from calling themselves glam rockers. The first recorded use of "punk rock" was not in Queen's liner notes but in Sniffin' Glue, one of the oldest punk documents in the world. Historically, all rock music scholars have accepted and continue to accept this as fact. Prog rockers dont. Sounds like a fucked up Progressive Rock purist, if you ask me (and I dont mean racism to Progressive Rock fans in general, I have many friends among them). Glam is a rock sound related to punk, but not derived from it. Also, the entire glam community in general has been proven to be mixed. The original glam performers were mostly males and whatever Purists were there would have been mixed up anyway within 2 hours of their stay in the club. There's no way there can be any prog rock descendants among the punks. Yet we still are of heavy metal lineage. we are proud rockers and proud of our rock heritage, yet we do not see ourselves as punks. We left psychedelic rock more than three and a half decades ago and have become glam. We built modern rock and are as much apart of it as any one else.

LOL why do glamboys always claim to be rockers?
Musically speaking it has been shown that 'glammers' are genetically similar to lounge acts (piano bar and drag show) moreso than to rockers. Glitter is in its earliest use in cabaret culture not rock and roll, that culture flowed West and East still evidenced today in ruins in Atlantic City, and Las Vegas however in the desert they tried to and did destroy Michael Jackson robots that were nearly 50 ft tall. Hmmmm ever think this occurred for many many years and nearly wiped out all R&B cultural influences in these Westerly desert states? Not too obvious eh? LOL

The only legitimacy glammers/mods have on the term "rocker" is from an essay by Lester Bangs-however it is much later than any Indian mention of the term.

You know, if you had asked me to guess how many comments were on the Persians thread, I would have thought it was in the hundreds. Only 49? Wow. I guess it just feels like it has hundreds of comments.

And um, it probably goes without saying that Hoop-T Rapers is the hero.

But now I'm just trying to bump up the number of comments.

Hey Chimt, could you help me categorize Robyn Hitchcock's solo work? I understand from places like Wikipaedia that when he was with the Soft Boys his genre was Janglepop, a genre with which I'm pretty unfamiliar but was apparently founded by the Byrds? Some of his solo stuff sounds like psychedelic rock, some sounds almost punk, some sounds new wave... A couple of songs (eg "Lady Waters and the Hooded One") sound prog... Is he sui generis?

Oh crap. I'll get onto the Robyn Hitchcock project today, Clownae. Sorry for the delay (it's been a busy week).

Froz Gobo decrees: Each one of M/tch's comments are worth two and a half.

Two and a half cents?

Two and a half cents? No, two and a half comments.

$.025? Don't flatter yourself.

apparently founded by the Byrds?

Sorta kinda, I guess. Though I really think of it as all growing out of Buddy Holly.

all growing out of Buddy Holly

What then is the distinguishing characteristic of janglepop, that I might recognize it when I hear it?

I hadn't thought about Buddy Holly being the Godfather of Jangle, but it definitely fits. I've got "Rave On" stuck in my head now, but that's a good thing.

Let's see, general characteristics of jangle pop for me: generally upbeat, often even chirpy; jangly-sounding strummy chiming guitars; harmony vocals often. Hmmm, this is hard.

Maybe try thinking about what the sounds of the following songs (in no particular order) have in common:

Buddy Holly, "Rave On"
The Byrds, "Mr. Tambourine Man" and/or "I'll Feel a Whole Lot Better"
The Smiths, "This Charming Man"
REM, "Driver 8"
Robyn Hitchcock, "So You Think You're in Love"
Stone Roses, "Elephant Stone"
The Feelies, "It's Only Life"
Teenage Fan Club, "Star Sign"

All of those singles fit squarely under the term "Jangle Pop" for me, although many of the artists shouldn't be classified as only producing Jangle Pop.

The Byrds, "Mr. Tambourine Man" and/or "I'll Feel a Whole Lot Better"

Huh that's funny. "Feel a Whole Lot Better" is a song I have always liked when I hear it on the radio or wherever but never known its provenance.

So is Teenage Fanclub's cover version of "I'll feel a whole lot better" worth 2 and a half?

63: It's jangle-poppiness goes to 11.

Jangle-pop was huge in the college scene in the South back when I was in high school and college. The big names for me were the dB's, Let's Active, early REM, Marshall Crenshaw, the Connells, the Smiths, The Church, and about a jillion similar sounding bands.

Also, the anonymous Buddy Holly comment was me.

Hitchcock makes the list too.

I listened to lots of his stuff with the Soft Boys, but purely by coincidence, have heard almost none of his work after he left the band.

65: You forgot Pylon!

But yeah, it was kind of a Southern-centered college radio thing in the early to mid-80s (what year were you born in, apo? I'm pretty sure we're right about the same age, but I can't remember if I've ever actually confirmed this).

And your mention of The Church in relation to the genre surprised me at first, but thinking back, they did do kind of a brooding version of jangle pop.

Lovely, lovely Pylon.

what year were you born in, apo?

1968.

Me too. When in 1968 (I was born on August 5)?

Lovely, lovely Pylon.

I liked them too, but it was more the assonance with "Poland" than their jangliness that lead me to bring them up.

When in 1968

Thanksgiving Day, November 28.

Wow, I am your senior!

Anyway, what'd you say your social security number was again?

And, no reason, just out of curiosity, what was your mother's maiden name?

In a few more years I`ll be as old as Methuseleh - I don`t know much about these bands, though Buddy Holly rings a bell.

How about Katrina and the Waves (featuring Kimberly Rew, Soft Boys guitarist)?

65: I just went to see the dB's and the Mayflies USA play in Carrboro a few months ago. It was a quite a show, a reunion for both bands.

Were any of you guys there?

I wasn't, but I do sit in the cube next to Chris Stamey's wife at work.

75: I only know that one song by Katrina and the Waves, "Walking on Sunshine". It's waaaaaaaaay too cheerful and chirpy for my tastes, and grates on my nerves terribly, so I've never explored any further.

However, while poking around looking for Robyn Hitchcock info recently I discovered that they won the Eurovision song contest sometime in the mid-90s, which was surprising given that their one big hit came out about a decade earlier.

...just out of curiosity, what was your mother's maiden name?

Apostropher has no mother; he came to us via interdimensional reconstitutionalization... reconsitutionitification... reconstituti... oy. Forgive me, please.

77: That's awesome, mystery person! Does that mean she's met Alex Chilton? Which would mean I'm only 3 or 4 degrees separated from him?

Crap, mystery person was me [remember personal info...yes...okay, then]. She may well have met Alex Chilton. She certainly seems to have met everybody else.

81: Geez, apo, why don't you just come right out and call her a slut already.

He wasen't iranian, he was parsi. I'm armenian-iranian-swiss, and calling him full iranian is wrong. He is iranian-indian,thus the word "parsi"
His ancestors immigrated to India a looong time ago.

There's no stopping the classic apo threads.

Forget the aforementioned rhetoric thrown out by both sides; everyone is 1 of the same.
To quiten down the hatters up there (higher posts) there is alot of incorrectness with some individual interpretations of history, which will be told thrugh your own bias.

Please can you parsis quiten down; it seems you have a case of egotistical pride which we have interpreted through your posts.
and another thing>>>>>>
Dont get it twisted Iran has done very well for itself despite pressure allure sanctions, India is not as advanced in many fields.
so please spare us the; you are the chosen ones routine that have made this world what it is.
inhabitants of this planet have collectively made this world what it is.

English man

Howcome Parsis don't respect their fellow countrymen? It's pretty absurd...I would think that after finding refuge in India, at least they would be respectful of India and her people.
Indian culture is very tolerant and very accepting. Persian culture is itself very beautiful...I'm especially interested in the pre-Islamic elements of the culture...you should see how Indians and Iranians get along in the United States. Why can't it be like that in India, where Persians have lived alongside Indians for hundreds of year now?